The FAF AFAP Digest

That "fly pull" exercise nothing more than an extremely convoluted and difficult-to-set-up lateral raise, with the false appearance of being swim-specific due to a mock-butterfly motion. But the direction of resistance is the opposite as in a swimming pull, so muscular forces are roughly backwards. Or inside out or not related at all due to the fact that swimming happens in water. That exercise is the equivalent of putting on ankle weights and air-bicycling on your back to run faster. Or talking with a rubber band strapped from your chin to the top of your head so you can bite harder. Or, ****, I dunno, lying on a beach ball and doing backwards-resisted butterfly pulls to swim faster. Something ridiculous, I mean

Jazz and Q made fun of it

Are you accusing me of making fun of something or someone? I am just the slightest bit offended... very slight.

But really, I can't find where I made fun of the Cavic flys.

Glad that the meds are showing some effect. Waiting games are not fun.

Have you thought about adding air bicycles with ankle weights to your routine?

Send rain to Texas, we'd love a flood.

looks like you're training pretty well,

gotta cure that "dying arms" issue in your 1 fl, isn't that 2nd 50 brutal?
at least it's not as bad SCM & SCY as it is LCM

If you really want to improve your 1 fl & bk, consider working on:
+ easy small speed SDKs (you don't need to hammer them as hard as you do in the 50 bk & fl)
+ easy speed fly with fast arms, great body position, frequent breathing and minimal kicks, learn to swim fly fairly fast while barely kicking, not much knee bend or power and
+ hate to say it but if you did a practice or 2 a week training for the 2 & 5 fr,
your 2nd 50's on your 1 fl & bk would be faster & seem easier.
Could your shoulders handle the longer stuff?
+ once a week swim a fast, well split 1 fly for time,
your 1st 50 & 2nd 50 need to be with in 2.5 sec of each other, no more than 3.0

stay fast and dry

Originally Posted by Jazz Hands

That "fly pull" exercise nothing more than an extremely convoluted and difficult-to-set-up lateral raise, with the false appearance of being swim-specific due to a mock-butterfly motion. But the direction of resistance is the opposite as in a swimming pull, so muscular forces are roughly backwards. Or inside out or not related at all due to the fact that swimming happens in water. That exercise is the equivalent of putting on ankle weights and air-bicycling on your back to run faster. Or talking with a rubber band strapped from your chin to the top of your head so you can bite harder. Or, ****, I dunno, lying on a beach ball and doing backwards-resisted butterfly pulls to swim faster. Something ridiculous, I mean

He lives! Have you been swimming at all Jazz or too busy with the new job?

It's not the pull I need work on in butterfly, it's the recovery. This exercise seems to simulate the recovery. Why do you think Bottom and Cavic were doing it if it weren't beneficial? Do you hate all (attempted) swim specific exercises?

Originally Posted by qbrain

Are you accusing me of making fun of something or someone? I am just the slightest bit offended... very slight.

But really, I can't find where I made fun of the Cavic flys.

Glad that the meds are showing some effect. Waiting games are not fun.

Have you thought about adding air bicycles with ankle weights to your routine?

I'm too lazy to do another search, but I'm pretty sure you agreed with Jazz that they were ridiculous. What do you think if I'm mis-remembering?

Yes, hate waiting, and that is always the case with thyroid issues b/c you have to increase very incrementally. Though honestly I think part of me breathing hard was due to my absolute lack of aerobic conditioning after training alone all summer.

Originally Posted by ande

Send rain to Texas, we'd love a flood.

looks like you're training pretty well,

gotta cure that "dying arms" issue in your 1 fl, isn't that 2nd 50 brutal?
at least it's not as bad SCM & SCY as it is LCM

If you really want to improve your 1 fl & bk, consider working on:
+ easy small speed SDKs (you don't need to hammer them as hard as you do in the 50 bk & fl)
+ easy speed fly with fast arms, great body position, frequent breathing and minimal kicks, learn to swim fly fairly fast while barely kicking, not much knee bend or power and
+ hate to say it but if you did a practice or 2 a week training for the 2 & 5 fr,
your 2nd 50's on your 1 fl & bk would be faster & seem easier.
Could your shoulders handle the longer stuff?
+ once a week swim a fast, well split 1 fly for time,
your 1st 50 & 2nd 50 need to be with in 2.5 sec of each other, no more than 3.0

stay fast and dry

I'm never swimming LC 100 fly again. I learned my lesson well.

I do practice easy speed SDK and fly. In my short course fly, though, I'm kicking 50% of the race. Not sure how to swim fly without legs; that's what drives my fly.

I can't train for the 200 or 500 free solo. My shoulders might be OK if I used fins. I'm hoping my team practices can help with endurance.

Good idea about doing a 1 fly for time each week. Just not right now. Maybe I can start in a couple weeks; I can barely do fly at the moment. I won't swim 100 fly (& 100 IM) in SCM until December anyway.

Originally Posted by The Fortress

I'm too lazy to do another search, but I'm pretty sure you agreed with Jazz that they were ridiculous. What do you think if I'm mis-remembering?

I am pretty sure there is at least one person on the forums who actually think Jazz and I have the exact same opinions.

http://forums.usms.org/blog.php?bt=6601

First comment.

Originally Posted by qbrain

I am pretty sure there is at least one person on the forums who actually think Jazz and I have the exact same opinions.

http://forums.usms.org/blog.php?bt=6601

First comment.

So you just did not want to disagree with Jazzy?

Originally Posted by The Fortress

So you just did not want to disagree with Jazzy?

Very funny.

Originally Posted by The Fortress

He lives! Have you been swimming at all Jazz or too busy with the new job?

It's not the pull I need work on in butterfly, it's the recovery. This exercise seems to simulate the recovery. Why do you think Bottom and Cavic were doing it if it weren't beneficial? Do you hate all (attempted) swim specific exercises?

I would lend more credence to what Bottom, Cavic, etc do than others. When Jazz goes 23+ in the 50m fly, then I'll listen more to opinions about "useless" training.

Here's a birds eye view of my easy-speed/1 beat-barely-kick/breathe-every-stroke fly
The goal is to go a fairly fast 50 with minimal fatigue
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7RvFmrcIUg"]2010 Ande Rasmussen scm 200 IM hd - YouTube[/nomedia]

Originally Posted by qbrain

Very funny.

:-)

I know, normally you're disagreeable. So I could only conclude from your intentional silence that you just didn't want to call me ridiculous.

Originally Posted by JimRude

I would lend more credence to what Bottom, Cavic, etc do than others. When Jazz goes 23+ in the 50m fly, then I'll listen more to opinions about "useless" training.

Yes, I think they know what they're doing. My legs never fail when racing fly; it's always the arms. I've got to take steps to address that aside from swimming lots of fly.

Originally Posted by ande

Here's a birds eye view of my easy-speed/1 beat-barely-kick/breathe-every-stroke fly
The goal is to go a fairly fast 50 with minimal fatigue
2010 Ande Rasmussen scm 200 IM hd - YouTube

When I try to swim fly that way, I just go up and down -- like in my 100 at Nationals. I would have to completely overhaul my stroke to swim like that. And that effort, along with training for 200-500 free, would kill my raw speed for the 50.

8 x 50 ???? Can't remember what we did here. Senior moment.

Ha There's a very good reason you can't remember the 8 x 50 set. We didn't do it. I guess I ruined the pattern by not putting it in there but practice would have been too long.

Originally Posted by 200free

Ha There's a very good reason you can't remember the 8 x 50 set. We didn't do it. I guess I ruined the pattern by not putting it in there but practice would have been too long.

I'm not sure if I feel more or less senile.

Originally Posted by JimRude

I would lend more credence to what Bottom, Cavic, etc do than others. When Jazz goes 23+ in the 50m fly, then I'll listen more to opinions about "useless" training.

I don't give a **** what you think. I've stopped responding to all of the blatant irrationality here (it's overwhelming) except with Fort because I actually care if she does well, and I know she'll at least consider my arguments.

Originally Posted by Jazz Hands

I don't give a **** what you think. I've stopped responding to all of the blatant irrationality here (it's overwhelming) except with Fort because I actually care if she does well, and I know she'll at least consider my arguments.

Way to keep it classy.

Originally Posted by JimRude

Way to keep it classy.

Jazz just gets riled up on the Internet. He's done a ton of research on strength building and definitely influenced my drylands training. But I wonder if I could tweak it to help solve a problem. It doesn't seem that different in concept from training with a parachute -- swim specific strength training. Something that Salo advocates also.

Originally Posted by The Fortress

He lives! Have you been swimming at all Jazz or too busy with the new job?

I have been very busy with the new job. Lifting about three times a week still, but I haven't been in a pool since the meet. I think my elbows and shoulders are happier with some reduced workload, but it's about time for me to get back to it.

It's not the pull I need work on in butterfly, it's the recovery. This exercise seems to simulate the recovery. Why do you think Bottom and Cavic were doing it if it weren't beneficial? Do you hate all (attempted) swim specific exercises?

That exercise is almost completely identical to a cable lateral raise. It's perfectly fine for building shoulder strength, but I'm not going to pretend that it's innovative or advanced or swim-specific.

I think Bottom likes to be an "innovative" coach. He likes to show off unconventional training techniques. I don't really have anything against that, but I do like to recognize the difference between novelty and usefulness (although novelty has its own usefulness, psychologically).

And yes, I hate swim-mocking on dryland. Skills just do not transfer like that. It's pure fantasy to think that you can squirm around in gym clothes and somehow (it's always just somehow...) that's going to help you interact with water. The parachute is a much better idea.