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Thread: "Swimming is not a team sport," or is it?

  1. #41
    Very Active Member quicksilver's Avatar
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    Re: "Swimming is not a team sport," or is it?

    Good point.

    You forgot potato sack racing.

    and Nascar!
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  2. #42
    Very Active Member islandsox's Avatar
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    Re: "Swimming is not a team sport," or is it?

    Well, open water swimming for me is definitely not a team sport; gosh, no one will follow me on a little 10 mile swim. My question is: why the H* not? Come join the fun; look at the fishes, embrace those jellyfish, dodge those sharks!

    donna
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  3. #43
    Very Active Member ViveBene's Avatar
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    Re: "Swimming is not a team sport," or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by islandsox View Post
    Well, open water swimming for me is definitely not a team sport; gosh, no one will follow me on a little 10 mile swim. My question is: why the H* not? Come join the fun; look at the fishes, embrace those jellyfish, dodge those sharks!

    donna
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  4. #44
    Very Active Member Redbird Alum's Avatar
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    Re: "Swimming is not a team sport," or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikedilv View Post
    ...the observation that they do not have the aide of peer pressure. They have peer encouragement, but not pressure (I am assuming.)

    ... though corporations want a "team" structure, the aide of peer pressure isn't a common aspect in a corporate team. Often your performance does not affect my paycheck How will a traditional "team" player function without that aide in a corporate environment? ...
    You may not like this, but there are only so many spots at the top, so to speak. I am sure team peer pressure leads individuals within and across teams to strive to ensure their team is represented well in the finals at any venue. (Example, Texas Swimming and NCAA's and/or US Olympics.)

    You may also not like this, but in many large corporations, one aspect of employee performance review results can be the "curve" process, wherein all employees within a given class "should" receive ratings that will "naturally" fall into a bell-shaped curve around average performance based on their performance relative to their peers. This is often used when a company needs differentialtion but still limit the growth in base payroll. So your premise that peer pressure doesn't exist in corporations is not always true.

    Just some thoughts for your thesis...


  5. #45
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    Re: "Swimming is not a team sport," or is it?

    Sweet, a fellow logician ....though I am an embryo ie Phil 1010. I really appreciate your input. I especially appreciate the counter-argument!

  6. #46
    Very Active Member Rykno's Avatar
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    Re: "Swimming is not a team sport," or is it?

    an example of how swimming at times is not a team sport.

    the under 12's went to one meet, a few of the 14-18's went to another, and I went to a third meet all on the same day. I was all alone. couldn't get any of the Masters swimmers to come with me, and none of the age groupers were interested in swimming all day and since currently we don't have a fixed coach none of the temp coaches wanted to waste a saturday.

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    Red face Re: "Swimming is not a team sport," or is it?

    Ok, I just spoke with one of our swim team members here at the University of Utah. She said that collegiate swimming is definitely a team sport. She said high school can be, but it depends on the school. So, if I may narrow it down, my question is now, "In your opinion, is collegiate swimming a team sport?"

    (If you thoroughly comprehend the topic of circular logic and Beg The Question topic, please pm me. They are driving me crazy. Thank you Aristotle. Appreciate ya! )
    Last edited by mikedilv; October 1st, 2008 at 12:05 AM.

  8. #48
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    Re: "Swimming is not a team sport," or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikedilv View Post
    Ok, I just spoke with one of our swim team members here at the University of Utah. She said that collegiate swimming is definitely a team sport.
    And we should care what she thinks why?

    Any question like this depends on your definition of "team sport." Go back and look at my first post in the thread: you can "make" swimming into a team sport, but at its heart it's an individual sport. It is not fundamentally a team sport, like many sports that can't reasonably be done by an individual.

    For all people get out of training together and the value they place on camaraderie, it doesn't change the fact that at its heart, swimming is about each individual trying to swim as fast as they can in competition.

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    Re: "Swimming is not a team sport," or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by haroldbuck View Post
    And we should care what she thinks why.
    Don't focus on her opinion. It was the reason for narrowing the question.
    Last edited by mikedilv; September 30th, 2008 at 11:30 PM.

  10. #50
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    Re: "Swimming is not a team sport," or is it?

    Ok, let's run with Wikipedia , if it helps:

    A team comprises a group of people or animals(you know who you are) linked in a common purpose. Teams are especially appropriate for conducting tasks that are high in complexity and have many interdependent subtasks. Teams normally have members with complementary skills and generate synergy through a coordinated effort which allows each member to maximize his or her strengths and minimize his or her weaknesses. Thus teams of sports players can form (and re-form) to practice their craft.

  11. #51
    Very Active Member Kurt Dickson's Avatar
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    Re: "Swimming is not a team sport," or is it?

    I think in narrowing your focus it has not changed the answer.

    The point has been made if you have 4 great swimmers, you barely need the 16-20 others on the "team." You don't need 20 swimmers to win dual meets or get a top 20 at NCAAs. You absolutely need a full team to win football games.

  12. #52
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    Re: "Swimming is not a team sport," or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Dickson View Post
    I think in narrowing your focus it has not changed the answer.

    The point has been made if you have 4 great swimmers, you barely need the 16-20 others on the "team." You don't need 20 swimmers to win dual meets or get a top 20 at NCAAs. You absolutely need a full team to win football games.
    I would lean towards the above being an opinion rather than an answer. However, opinions are what I am seeking, so thank you! Being that this is an inductive process of evaluating the opinions of competitive swimmers (ideally those with first-hand collegiate experience or observation), the larger my sample the stronger my conclusion. Of course there is quite some risk of bias in the poll, but I am taking that into consideration and its just for an upper division writing course paper and not a research journal. Once again, I am very thankful for everyone's input. I am buried in classes and homework and find it very helpful to be able to run this inquiry off my laptop rather than chasing down collegiate swimmers across the country one-on-one.
    Last edited by mikedilv; October 1st, 2008 at 01:35 AM.

  13. #53
    Very Active Member aquageek's Avatar
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    Re: "Swimming is not a team sport," or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikedilv View Post
    Ok, I just spoke with one of our swim team members here at the University of Utah. She said that collegiate swimming is definitely a team sport.
    That's like asking a group of drunks if they like alcohol. If you play traditional team sports you will realize that there is barely an iota of team in swimming. I love going to swim meets with my friends and their encouragement but they aren't on the blocks with me or in the water.

  14. #54
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    Re: "Swimming is not a team sport," or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by aquageek View Post
    That's like asking a group of drunks if they like alcohol. If you play traditional team sports you will realize that there is barely an iota of team in swimming. I love going to swim meets with my friends and their encouragement but they aren't on the blocks with me or in the water.
    That would result in disqualification.

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    Thumbs up Re: "Swimming is not a team sport," or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by aquageek View Post
    If you play traditional team sports you will realize that there is barely an iota of team in swimming.
    Nice! Thank you! That provides me with a valuable conditional inference that I can use to further reduce bias in the sample, if the inference is indeed strong.
    Last edited by mikedilv; October 1st, 2008 at 01:16 PM.

  16. #56
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    Re: "Swimming is not a team sport," or is it?

    College, and high school swimming are team sports.

    I have played polo and swam. There is a bit of difference, yet it is a group of people making sacrifices for a common goal.

    The swimmer who came in third place to receive one point sometimes is as important as the field goal kicker who scores at the last minute, winning the game.

  17. #57
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    Re: "Swimming is not a team sport," or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by stillwater View Post
    College, and high school swimming are team sports.

    I have played polo and swam. There is a bit of difference, yet it is a group of people making sacrifices for a common goal.

    The swimmer who came in third place to receive one point sometimes is as important as the field goal kicker who scores at the last minute, winning the game.
    Yet none of that changes that fact that swimming is an individual sport with an artificial team scoring added to it.

    I get it: people on swim teams have teammates. They benefit from the social interactions on the team, they maybe work harder to try to further the team good. Someone who's not that great might be the difference between the team winning and losing.

    But wouldn't that be the case with any individual sport you decided to put a team scoring on? In that case, wouldn't every sport be a team sport as soon as someone, somewhere put a team scoring on it? If that's the case, the term "team sport" is meaningless. I mean, can you think of any sport which is done competitively that couldn't have a team scoring added to it somehow?

    The interdependence of the members of the team and their working together in some form has to be a requisite for defining a team sport.

  18. #58
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    Re: "Swimming is not a team sport," or is it?

    If my teammate allows me to draft does that count? If my teams running mates box in another team's competitor to slow him down does that count? If I sit on the bench the entire time am I not a team member?

    Individual efforts combined to achieve group victory. Sounds like football, baseball, soccer, and doubles ping pong.

    I think I understand your position. I choose to expand the definition, not limit it.

    I don't think that bowling qualifies, I could be wrong.

  19. #59
    Very Active Pirate Blackbeard's Peg's Avatar
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    Re: "Swimming is not a team sport," or is it?

    Great question, and I would also argue that this belongs in the Swimming-Related forum.

    My take on this is that it depends on how you quantify "swimming."

    If you look at a particular race, the 6/8/10 people in the pool each have a different goal. Some may be trying to beat a particular time (set a new PB, or a mid-season goal, or make a certain qualifying time); others may be trying to beat someone else in the pool; someone else may be swimming the event for the first time ever and just wants to find out what it is like.

    Olympic Trials is a great example of swimming being an individual sport. Pretty much everyone is trying to do all of the above, and be named to the Olympic Team. I think Masters Swimming falls into this pigeon hole too. Most of us could care less about how well our team does - only if we swam as fast as we wanted to and beat the people we wanted to. So is the example of a lap/fitness swimmer. They are in the water for personal gain only.

    On the flip side, you see the team come out in relays and scored meets. In a relay, 4 individuals come together for the glory of their team. In a summer league meet, two teams battle each other for more points based on the success of their swimmers. In Masters, this is best seen at Nationals, where a few teams with lots of swimmers battle it out, mostly via relays, for most points.

    In conclusion, I would say that Swimming is a Team Sport for Individuals. It allows the participant the best of both worlds - you can achieve glory as an individual at the same time as your team achieves glory of its own.
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  20. #60
    Very Active Member FlyQueen's Avatar
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    Re: "Swimming is not a team sport," or is it?

    Is it by all technical definitions a team sport? Probably not but how many of you would be able to train the way you do without a team? How many Olympians would be swimming as fast as they do without a team? (Jason Lezak excluded but he had a team for many years)

    My teammates are a big part of the reason I show up to practice, they are certainly why I get faster and why I love the sport. They may not contribute to my race directly while I am racing (other than by cheering and convincing me not to climb out) but they get me to the blocks. There's an old swimming saying, "the race begins long before you step onto the blocks." well without my teammate I'd be slower and fatter.
    "I don't race to see who is the fastest, I race to see who has the most guts."

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