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Thread: HIT training for mid distance?

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    Active Member Eelbilly's Avatar
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    HIT training for mid distance?

    Set design for HIT training for the 200m and 400m events.

    Have any of you any experience with this? I know there are prominent sprinters among you of the HIT persuasion, but have it been done for, say, the 400 IM or 200 breast?

    Both in my teens and the four years I have been swimming masters, I have focused on mid distance and distance events - the 400, 800 and 1500 free, the 400 and 200 IM and the 200 breast and fly. I've been doing traditional high volume training, although as a master, 'high volume' is a third or less of what it used to be.

    The last two years I've incorporated an increasing amount of race pace training, and the first set after warm up is always a sprint set - 4-8x10-25 m. For the 1500, race pace training is close to traditional nx100 sets, but with a keener eye for the rep times.

    I am now thinking of taking it further. After finding this link on the Science of Swimming thread, I am curious to see if one can train for the 200m and 400m events with HIT training as explained here:

    http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/swim/bullets/energy39.pdf

    The problem now is how do I design the sets and the workouts? I get a fair idea of how to train for the various 200s, but I find the paper vague when it comes to IM training. Do I swim one set of each stroke? 20x50, 'five of each'? Or do I mimic the race by swimming the repeats in IM order - 50 fly, 50 back, then breast, free, fly, back, breast etc for the 200 and, perhaps, 2xfly, 2xback, 2xbreast etc for the 400?

    And if this is an acceptable interpretation one will probably have to add some mixed style repeats to practice the turns, but then speed will be harder to monitor.

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    Very Active Member pwb's Avatar
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    Re: HIT training for mid distance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eelbilly View Post
    Set design for HIT training for the 200m and 400m events..
    I can't help you with the 200 events, because those are just hard (except the 200 fly) but I train consistently for the 400 IM and 400/500 free with workouts like the ones I post here -- [ame="http://forums.usms.org/forumdisplay.php?f=121"]High Volume Workouts - by Patrick Brundage - U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums[/ame] -- and it seems to be working out well enough. I don't have any science to back me up on this, though.

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    Re: HIT training for mid distance?

    After LCM Nats in August 2008, I trained mostly anaerobic sets for a couple years. I did almost no aerobic sets. My times in 50's, 100's, and 200's did not change significantly. My 400/500 times suffered though. I switched back to doing aerobic main sets in late 2010, and my times in the longer events are back where they should be. So in my experience, you need some aerobic training if you want to go longer than 200.
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    Very Active Member knelson's Avatar
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    Re: HIT training for mid distance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eelbilly View Post
    The problem now is how do I design the sets and the workouts? I get a fair idea of how to train for the various 200s, but I find the paper vague when it comes to IM training. Do I swim one set of each stroke? 20x50, 'five of each'? Or do I mimic the race by swimming the repeats in IM order - 50 fly, 50 back, then breast, free, fly, back, breast etc for the 200 and, perhaps, 2xfly, 2xback, 2xbreast etc for the 400?
    My answer would be "yes." Probably do a little of each. The idea is to be training at race pace without a whole lot of rest, so do that first and foremost. I would also suggest doing swims where you're doing more than one stroke so you're practicing the transitions.

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    Very Active Member knelson's Avatar
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    Re: HIT training for mid distance?

    Quote Originally Posted by That Guy View Post
    So in my experience, you need some aerobic training if you want to go longer than 200.
    Here's a sample set from Rushall's "ultra short training" plan:
    20x50 m free at 200m race pace on 1:00

    Is that anaerobic or aerobic? I think Rushall would argue it's both, and that's why it's the most effective training--because it most effectively emulates racing.

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    Re: HIT training for mid distance?

    Quote Originally Posted by knelson View Post
    Here's a sample set from Rushall's "ultra short training" plan:
    20x50 m free at 200m race pace on 1:00

    Is that anaerobic or aerobic? I think Rushall would argue it's both, and that's why it's the most effective training--because it most effectively emulates racing.
    That's pretty similar to the sort of stuff that I did, except that I did mostly fly sets. It was fine training for the 200 fly, but not at all adequate for the 400 IM or the 400/500 free.
    "I blame you, James!" - knelson

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    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: HIT training for mid distance?

    Based on Rushell's work ,one day a week I do 30X50 on the minute of 12.5 yd sprint and aim for 200 pace for the rest(37.5 yd).I do 4 of each stroke,4 BR pulls(I'm a breaststroker)4 eggbeaters,4 SDK ,& 2 flutterkick.Except for the full stroke BR I only do the 12.5 of each stroke and finish each 50 as free.
    To focus on the 200 BR one day a week I do 8X100 BR at 200 pace with what ever active recovery(slow swimming) between each to maintain race pace.Due to chronic knee issues I only do the first 2 full stroke and the next 6 BR pull with fins.Since the fins make open turns a mess I do flip turns.Flip turns with a pullout really help me prepare for that last pullout of the 200 BR when it always ,for me,becomes a question of smooth breakout vs.gasping for O2.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
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    Very Active Member Kevin in MD's Avatar
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    Re: HIT training for mid distance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eelbilly View Post

    The problem now is how do I design the sets and the workouts? I get a fair idea of how to train for the various 200s, but I find the paper vague when it comes to IM training. Do I swim one set of each stroke? 20x50, 'five of each'? Or do I mimic the race by swimming the repeats in IM order - 50 fly, 50 back, then breast, free, fly, back, breast etc for the 200 and, perhaps, 2xfly, 2xback, 2xbreast etc for the 400?
    This is a bigger question than you know and people seem to be giving all or none answers.

    First of all, some background. To start with, let's get the lingo straight. What you are talking about when you say high intensity sets, for 200 and 400 IM would be what are commonly called sp1, sp2, and en3 sets. You can google those terms and find a good explanation, I also wrote up a series of articles laying them out and the reasons for them a couple of years ago.

    You can go here http://acadianendurance.blogspot.com...etabolism.html and find them. Start there and read everything tat follows it, I think it is four articles.

    This will also help in finding sets, you can google for IM sp2 and probably get somewhere with it. swiminfo.com workout finder is a pretty good source as well.

    Now, for questions like this there are three good sources to look into. "Championship Swim Training", "The swim coaching bible volume 1" and "the swim coaching bible volume 2" note that those two volumes are completely different books, not just updates.

    In there you will get more background on what you are trying to setup and a lot more examples of sets.

    Now, more directly about your question, my squad is doing something similar right now in that the early season is setup for everyone to prepare for a fast 200 IM in December, from there we will specialize in our given strokes for the rest of the season until the zone championships in April.

    How did we set it up?

    What we are doing is 5 week blocks of each stroke and then a block of IM training leading up tot eh day of the meet where we will do the 200 IM. I think you should do something similar and make the first block your weakest stroke.

    Here's what we are doing

    Block 1: Breaststroke
    Technique Emphasis - Breast (obviously)
    Set Type emphasis (we do a bit of everything but this is the emphasis)
    Mixed stroke EN1, Breaststroke SP1 and SP2

    Block 2: Backstroke
    Technique - Back
    Set Types - Mixed EN1, Backstroke SP1 and Sp2

    Block 3:Fly
    Technique Emphasis - Fly
    Set Types - Mixed EN1, Fly SP1 and Sp2, typical fly repeats for a given set type is shorter than for the other strokes

    Block 4: Free
    Technique Emphasis - Free
    Set Types - Mixed En1, Free SP1 and SP2

    Block 5: IM
    Technique - Transition turns and starts
    Set Types - IM EN3, IM order Sp1 and Sp2


    If we were doing 400 IMs, I think the major change i would make would be that instead of going mixed EN1 for the entire block, I would start to add EN2 about two months in until it is mostly mixed en2 rather than mixed en1 at the end.

    Good luck

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    Active Member Eelbilly's Avatar
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    Re: HIT training for mid distance?

    Thanks for great tips!

    Big question: Can I drop 2 seconds in the 200m free?

    The masters team I swim with have no on deck coach, I don't think any teams in Norway have that. It's usually one of the swimmers that make the workouts, or one takes turns giving the next set. This can be less than systematic. So when I swim with my team (once/w) and in various public pools (4/w) I plan the workouts we swim.

    So far I have based my training (and coaching) on Ernest Maglischo's Swimming Fastest. The book have been a great help, very instructive in set design and how to train for different events.

    The terms you use, Kevin, seem to me to correspond (or be identical) to the intensity levels Maglischo describes. I will look into it, maybe get the books you reccomend, the latter two have been on my list for some time anyway.

    I am not yet a USMS member, so I cannot read the blogs and workout pages, but thank you, Patrick! Registering for USMS is also on my list... But high volume (all is relative - 16,000-20,000 m/w) is what I have been doing, and I thought I should try a new approach. That Guy has me thinking again, though.

    The start of all this was that I decided to go for an all time PB in the SCM 200 free. I did 2:04.something at 19 y, I think 2:04.8, and I did 2:05.61 in March this year, 26 years later. I think it's possible to go sub 2:04, but I believe I need more speed work.

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    Re: HIT training for mid distance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eelbilly View Post
    Thanks for great tips!
    Big question: Can I drop 2 seconds in the 200m free?
    The masters team I swim with have no on deck coach, I don't think any teams in Norway have that. It's usually one of the swimmers that make the workouts, or one takes turns giving the next set. This can be less than systematic. So when I swim with my team (once/w) and in various public pools (4/w) I plan the workouts we swim.
    So far I have based my training (and coaching) on Ernest Maglischo's Swimming Fastest. The book have been a great help, very instructive in set design and how to train for different events.
    The terms you use, Kevin, seem to me to correspond (or be identical) to the intensity levels Maglischo describes. I will look into it, maybe get the books you reccomend, the latter two have been on my list for some time anyway.
    I am not yet a USMS member, so I cannot read the blogs and workout pages, but thank you, Patrick! Registering for USMS is also on my list... But high volume (all is relative - 16,000-20,000 m/w) is what I have been doing, and I thought I should try a new approach. That Guy has me thinking again, though.
    The start of all this was that I decided to go for an all time PB in the SCM 200 free. I did 2:04.something at 19 y, I think 2:04.8, and I did 2:05.61 in March this year, 26 years later. I think it's possible to go sub 2:04, but I believe I need more speed work.
    hi Eel

    you asked: Can I drop 2 seconds in the 200m free?
    yes you can

    you've decided to go for an all time PB in the SCM 200 free.
    you went 2:04.8 at 19 &
    2:05.61 in Mar 2012 (26 years later)
    you think it's possible to go sub 2:04 you believe you need more speed work.

    Questions:
    How have you trained recently?
    How'd you split your 2:05.61 200 free?
    What were are your recent 50, 100, & 400 times?
    Do you have any videos of you swimming?
    What suit were you wearing?
    When is your next meet?
    What times have you done in practice?
    Height Weight?
    How strong are you?
    Are you lifting weights?
    hows your kick?

    Ideas from [ame="http://www.usms.org/forums/showpost.php?p=265004&postcount=1794"]Swim Faster Faster[/ame] will help you

    My suggestion to you is: Train to obliterate 2:04

    it will also be interesting to see your 50 & 100 times to see how they relate to your 200.
    Also seeing your 50 splits for your 200 might indicate opportunities as well

    It's possible to do HIT training for mid distance, but with out more info about you, I'm not sure what would provide you with the biggest improvements or help you swim faster faster. It might be better to improve your conditioning base for a few months then do a cycle of HIT training when your big meet is 2 or 3 months away.

    Good luck,

    Ande

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    Active Member Eelbilly's Avatar
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    Re: HIT training for mid distance?

    28.30 - 31.14 - 32.78 - 33.39; 59.44 and 1:06.17

    Quote Originally Posted by ande View Post
    hi Eel
    Quote Originally Posted by ande View Post
    you asked: Can I drop 2 seconds in the 200m free?
    yes you can
    Yeeeah!!!
    you've decided to go for an all time PB in the SCM 200 free.
    you went 2:04.8 at 19 &
    2:05.61 in Mar 2012 (26 years later)
    you think it's possible to go sub 2:04 you believe you need more speed work.
    Questions:
    How have you trained recently?
    I have been swimming masters for fours years. The first year I swam three times a week, then gradually stepped it up to five Aug-December 2009. I have been training mainly for the 1500, with 400 IM, 200 breast and 2-800 free as side events. 15x100 on the 1.25 or 1.20 or 10x200 @2.45 would be a typical set. For IM I do things like 8x125 or 8x250. 4x(25 fly-50 back-50 breast) and 4x(50 back-50 breast-25 free) - double that for the 250s.

    I swim two, sometimes three strokes in a workout, and always all strokes during a week. I have a favourite set of 4x(400 free+200 IM+50 fly) @5.30/3.15/60.
    I do a lot of En1-3, some lactate production, almost never lactate tolerance.
    The last year I have averaged close to 18,000m/week, almost 3,700 m/workout. I usually start my workouts with 12.5 or 25m sprints.

    How'd you split your 2:05.61 200 free?
    I have been dreading that question. May I begin with the feeble excuse that I usually split my races rather evenly?
    28.30 - 31.14 - 32.78 - 33.39;
    59.44 and 1:06.17
    2:05.61
    This was a week after our Nationals, when I did 58.06 (28.82/29.24) in the 100. I was furious at this; going out too slow ruined a sub 58 race, I felt. So I decided I wasn't going to make that mistake again, and as you can see, I didn't. I did the oposite mistake. The last 50 was unpleasant.
    What were are your recent 50, 100, & 400 times?
    My Masters bests are
    50: 26.87 (2010). This year 27.10
    100: 58.06 (2012). All time best 57.3 in 1985. I believe I can go better than that too.
    My 100 I split 28.82 and 29.24.
    400: 4:27.56 (2012). All time best 4:22 something, 1986. Same with this; I can do better.
    800: 9:19,13 (2012). Goal sub 9:10.
    1500: 17:31.38 (2012). Goal sub 17.15. All time best 17:02, 1985.
    Do you have any videos of you swimming?
    No, sorry.

    What suit were you wearing?
    I was wearing an Arena Powerskin R-EVO+ Jammer. I usually wear various Diana jammers, Vega or Antares.

    When is your next meet?
    Probably next weekend.

    What times have you done in practice?
    I have a set of 8x(50 fast+100 easy) @2.50. I do the 50s in 30, one or two 31. I do 4x(4x50 @50+100 easy @2.00). I do the 50s in 31 and 32. This is on the pace clock (no coach) but it matches well with when I'm timed.

    Height Weight?
    I'm 191 cm (6 f 3"), weight 77.5 kg (about 171 pounds)

    How strong are you?
    See answer to previous question . I lifted weights quite seriously for four years before I started swimming, and I could do 20 continuous dead lifts with 265 pounds. Now I do pull downs, pushups, chins, curls and presses, and I ride my bike for 7 miles each way to work. But I have trouble gaining much muscle, and as in the pool, my dry land is more endurance than speed/strength.

    Are you lifting weights?
    See above. In July I changed jobs and city and I haven't found a convenient gym yet, so I do cords, pushups and chins in the stairs at home.

    hows your kick?
    My freestyle kick is pitiful. I have been working on that the last months, and now I actually kick. I've used an almost indicernable 2-beat kick for distance. I need to work on this. And SDKs.

    Ideas from Swim Faster Faster will help you
    They have, I read them over and over, thank you for posting!

    My suggestion to you is: Train to obliterate 2:04
    That's my plan!

    it will also be interesting to see your 50 & 100 times to see how they relate to your 200.
    Also seeing your 50 splits for your 200 might indicate opportunities as well
    It's possible to do HIT training for mid distance, but with out more info about you, I'm not sure what would provide you with the biggest improvements or help you swim faster faster. It might be better to improve your conditioning base for a few months then do a cycle of HIT training when your big meet is 2 or 3 months away.

    Good luck,
    Thank you!

    Ande

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    Re: HIT training for mid distance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eelbilly View Post
    I did 2:04.something at 19 y, I think 2:04.8, and I did 2:05.61 in March this year, 26 years later. I think it's possible to go sub 2:04, but I believe I need more speed work.
    Depends if its just a matter of two seconds to you. Ande mentioned some things already relating to the swim. But there are other ways you might be able to "find" that time in mistakes you make in your swim. By this I mean things like...

    How are your turns? You only have to be 3 tenths faster on each turn to get 2 seconds in a 200. Are your turns PERFECT?

    How is your start? If you have a bad reaction there might be a few tenths there too meaning you only have to drop 2 tenths off each turn. If you break streamline too quick it could cost you a few tenths too. Is your start maximized?

    How is your underwater kicks? With your improved start, if you could just gain just 1 extra tenth in the underwater, your turns only need to be 1-2 tenths faster each to get your two seconds. Are you streamlining and pushing those underwaters to carry your pushoff as far as possible?

    There's probably at least a few tenths of time to "find" in your current race if not more. The only thing you'll really want to think about is where your bar is set. Lets say its this easy to pull the 2 seconds out with mistake corrections, now you need to think about 2 seconds faster than that... because what you're really thinking about here is the swim time itself. Ande has addressed much of that already. In those splits alone I see 3-5 seconds you could shave off with more aerobic work. Holding those splits better and working on what I mention I think you have a good shot at breaking the 2:00 barrier. I don't think sheer speed is what you should focus on just yet. Maximize the speed you have by correcting mistakes and adding aerobic capacity, and get those splits closer together. It'd be nice to see them be 28, 30, 31, 31 before you fix your mistakes. Easier typed than done, of course.

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    Active Member Eelbilly's Avatar
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    Re: HIT training for mid distance?

    Thank you for your thorough comments, fmracing!

    Quote Originally Posted by fmracing View Post
    Depends if its just a matter of two seconds to you. Ande mentioned some things already relating to the swim. But there are other ways you might be able to "find" that time in mistakes you make in your swim. By this I mean things like...

    How are your turns? You only have to be 3 tenths faster on each turn to get 2 seconds in a 200. Are your turns PERFECT?
    While I cannot claim perfect turns, they are reasonably good. I've worked a bit on my turns, my main event being the SCM 1500. My SDKs are weak at best. I don't use them much for distance, it seems to take too much breath. I can shave a tenth or three on each of the turns.


    How is your start? If you have a bad reaction there might be a few tenths there too meaning you only have to drop 2 tenths off each turn. If you break streamline too quick it could cost you a few tenths too. Is your start maximized?
    -As with the turns, my start is not maximized (again, main event 1500). My reaction is not bad; for backstroke (only stroke where it's been measured), my best is 0.61, and usually <0.72. But I can find more force off the blocks; better entry, better streamline, definetely better SDKs and better breakout. 0.2-0.4 seconds.

    How is your underwater kicks? With your improved start, if you could just gain just 1 extra tenth in the underwater, your turns only need to be 1-2 tenths faster each to get your two seconds. Are you streamlining and pushing those underwaters to carry your pushoff as far as possible?
    -From my 2:05.61 - as stated above - I can shave a tenth or three on the SDKs. In that race I had between none and one underwater kick, now I can do 4 kicks with a good breakout, or 6 bobbing to the surface.

    There's probably at least a few tenths of time to "find" in your current race if not more. The only thing you'll really want to think about is where your bar is set.
    - Like Ande said, I want to obliterate 2.04. I believe I can go
    29.2-31.2-31.2-31.2: 2:02.8. And then some.

    Lets say its this easy to pull the 2 seconds out with mistake corrections, now you need to think about 2 seconds faster than that... because what you're really thinking about here is the swim time itself. Ande has addressed much of that already. In those splits alone I see 3-5 seconds you could shave off with more aerobic work.
    -I can understand your point of view from the splits. But if you look at 28.8/29.2 for the 100; a SCM 1500 of 17:31; a LCM 400 IM of 5.09.56 and a LCM 200 breast of 36.60-39.91-40.22-39.75 (2:36.48) in Riccione, I am not so sure that the aerobic capacity is the problem. I could be wrong.


    Holding those splits better and working on what I mention I think you have a good shot at breaking the 2:00 barrier.
    -Yeeeah! It sounds outlandish, but WHY NOT?!?

    I don't think sheer speed is what you should focus on just yet. Maximize the speed you have by correcting mistakes and adding aerobic capacity, and get those splits closer together. It'd be nice to see them be 28, 30, 31, 31 before you fix your mistakes. Easier typed than done, of course.
    Thank you again, I really appriciate this feedback.

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    Active Member Eelbilly's Avatar
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    Re: HIT training for mid distance?

    Hi again,

    I realise I made a mess of my last posts, with the quotes and the formats and all. I tried to be clever and do like I've seen Ande do, and write the comments/answers into the quote after each question. I've been wondering if I should clean them up and post them again, or if that just would be annoying.

    It would really be helpful to get some further comment on how to break the two minute barrier, or even drop a second or two.

    My splits for SCM 200 free were 28.30, 31.14 (59.44), 32.78, 33.78 (1:06.17) - 2:05.61 (March 2011). The pacing is awful.

    My 2012 best free times:
    50: 27.10
    100: 58.06 (28.82, 29.24)
    400: 4:27.56 (1:04.34, 1:08.25, 1:08.02, 1:06.87)
    1500: 17:31.38 (4:36, 9:19, 14:00)

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